How Much Theory Do You Need?

[skintaster]

Just wondering what others think about the amount of music theory they really need and use. I'm mostly a rock/metal player, and while I've studied scales and scale theory, I don't really use most of that knowledge very often. I mostly play by ear, and write my own songs.

Most of my musician buddies are in the same boat. They can all play pretty well, have good musical ears, but only know a little if any "real" music theory.

I'm not bashing theory btw... Just saying that I've managed to have good musical results without knowing much of it myself. Opinions?

[Leo Chang]

Really depends on your musical goals and aspirations...

If you are perfectly happy with where you are as a musician, utilizing what you already know, AND all your musical goals / aspirations have already been met.... then sure, no NEED to know more theory. There would no reason to.

If, on the other hand, you still have musical goals / aspirations that haven't been achieved... or that you are in the process of achieving... then chances are that a better knowledge of theory (and most importantly, the ability to APPLY that knowledge) will only help you.

The trick, in that case, would be to find a teacher / resource that can show you how to apply that knowledge to your specific style and musical context... instead of just throwing the information at you. In this day and age of informational overload... that's the real benefit of a teacher, 'cause you can get all the info you want for free on the net.

For instance... assuming that you might want to progress in your ability to improvise.... then get a teacher that can show you how all that theory stuff can help you be a much better improviser. Or if you want to progress as a composer... then get a teacher who can show you how all that theory stuff help you compose more easily, more efficiently, and more "musical vision" driven rather than "noodling-around-and-hope-I-stumble-upon-a-cool-riff" driven.

The examples probably don't apply to you... they are just illustrations

So yeah... really boils down to 2 questions:
1) In a world with no limitations whatsoever... what would you like to do musically?
2) Are you there yet?
- 2a) If yes, great, you can stop there.
- 2b) if no... then this is the point to get a teacher involved to assess what you need to get there. The solution may or may not involve learning more music theory, though it's probably very likely. But often with electric guitarists... we don't necessarily need to know more theory... we just need to learn how to apply more of what we already know.


Just my 2 cents


- Leo.


- Leo.

[Jacksons Shred]

The way I view it, is every great guitarist knows theory to some extent. whether or not they could point out the mode they're currently playing in, every great guitarist knows a deal of theory or is educated with their instrument. Some people want to say that theory holds back creativity, but I think that's bullshit, if anything, it gives you a better idea of what to do, and what rules to break!

Marty Friedman says he doesn't know "theory", but he sure as hell knows how harmonies work, and he sure as hell knows what notes sound great over what chord, so he's definitely studied and educated when it comes to music. If you look back at his older dvd's, he drops a few "scale" names.

Guthrie Govan sure knows his theory, as did the late great Shawn Lane. Two amazingly creative and exciting players.

I was going to post this yesterday but I figured it would spawn some sort of lame "feel" argument, but I say fuggems. If you really want to compare the 80's "feel" players like Lynch, Van Halen, Jake E Lee and the group, where the hell are they now? Sucking the dick of educated players like Jeff Loomis, Guthrie, and all those greats.. But like Jeff doesn't "know" theory, but he sure knows scales and chord tones, just because he may not know the names doesn't mean he is not educated!

Wow, I'm really starting to sound like BillZeePeeAllOverYee..Fuckin' Bill! :ROTF:

[Axewielder]

Unless you have the amazing natural abilities of EVH and Lynch to fall back on, ya better hit the books! My 10c anyway.

[Jacksons Shred]

Unless you have the amazing natural abilities of EVH and Lynch to fall back on, ya better hit the books! My 10c anyway.

Even then, If you watch some of George's DVD's, he has "his own" scales that he comes up with, so he is very far from uneducated and just guessing. I remember hearing somewhere that whenever he had solo's, he'd bring them to a teacher and have them explain theoretically what he was doing.

EVH plays piano, and I don't know anyone who plays piano well that doesn't know their scales and what not.. Eddie's an educated musician.

[Jack Napalm]

Having recently taken a few classes, one being Theory and one being a Harmony class, I can tell you that it has helped me. It actually freed me from thinking about it to a certain degree. Being very analytical in general was a hindrance. I learned there were so many ways to 'break the rules' that it opened up a whole new world to me.

[horns666]

None!

..and I don't want any..

[Axewielder]

Honestly I think Lynch downplays how much he knows. Didn't he take private lessons with a GIT instructor? He knows some shit, I'm tellin ya.

[Shawn Lutz]

I know a bunch of therory. I think it is pretty important. To me not knowing it would be like a color blind artist or one who only has shades of gray in his paint stash. I feel it is beneficial to understand the foundations of music, how and why things work or don't work. For rock and metal you at the very least should know the major scale, the modes associated with them, how chords are built off it and harmony in general. once you know it you pretty much put it on theback burner and just use it without thinking about it. Its sort of like the alphabet, yout not thinking about the alphabet when you forming words, sentences and paragraphs...

[horns666]

I seem to be drawn to players that lack theory, but I truly appreciate any good player. My faves Ed and Jeff don't knowingly apply theory to guitar. They're more of a free spirit without any preconcieved boundries, rules. Which allowed them to rely on imagination, creativity which led to unorthodox but practical techniques and inventions. To me, a great guitarist is having the ability to convey their ideas and hold the listener's interest. I believe theory or the lack of can be limiting on both sides of the coin. Art is creativity, and it doesn't matter how it's created as long as the results are good.

Shawn's analogy of colors is cool, but a self-taught still-life pencil sketch artist can be much more impressive than someone with a degree using the best brushes, paints and palette.

In my years, it seems that good player without much knowledge of or no theory seem to be better at original music. Those with theory seem to duplicate music very well. Sure Ed played piano, but that didn't make every guitarist require a floyd rose, explore tapping technique..not to mention chasing "the brown sound"..that's a color.

I became the bassist and songwriter I am because of my musical ignorance. I'm sure I'm applying some theory, since it sounds "right". But I've had friends big into theory that demanded me to walk them thru stuff that's soooo unorthodox to them. Ex: Eric Johnson and John Petrucci prolly would've NEVER came up with the intro to Meanstreet, or the chorus of "Born". They just get an idea and go for it, or sometimes discover the coolest things by accident. Ed called it "Falling down the steps and landing on your feet". Dweezil was around his father and Vai..Ed was his hero.

Uli Roth..He's an alien. I think he knows theory, but he seems to "sing" or "hum" whatever he plays. He never played a single note I didn't like. A quality I don't always find in Vai, Eric Johnson, Petrucci, Cooley, Malmsteen, no matter how technically amazing they are. Satch in Chickenfoot is a excaellent example that theory doesn't make you a better songwriter. I love Joe, but hearing him in Ed's old camp gave me a new found respect the king..even when I thought he was lame.

Right now there hasn't been a guitarist in the last 15 years that impresses more than Jeff Loomis. Uli Roth himself agreed with me on that. Uli made it a point to visit him at a hotel in Frankfurt Germany, where he gave him some lessons. Jeff gave him one of his sig Shcectors. That's all the confirmation I need.

I like guys that play with alot of fire and out of the box. They keep guitar playing interesting. When everyone became a EVH Uber clone in the 80's. It was bound to die. Like many, I fell victim to that. It became harder not to sound like Ed, than learning to sound like him.

All good players have something to offer, and I try to steal from all of them. But NEVER one of them note for note.

and fuck tabs too..

[Newc]

Theoretically, you need as much as you can get, but should only use as much as you need.

The G.I.T. babies contributed greatly to the hatred of theory - most of them came out sounding the same, and not sounding at all like the players that inspired them to go in the first place - Satch, Vai, EVH, Lynch, Gilbert, etc.

When I first started playing guitar, the only scale I knew was the C-Major from a Mel Bay book (and only on the first 5 frets). I learned where notes were simply by hitting every fret on every string. I did that enough that I was able to play Maiden and Rush solos with very few missed notes.

A few years later I got the Heavy Guitar Bible, and only read up to the Pentatonic scales. I learned them and was able to pick out Sabbath, Zeppelin, and Priest solos, but lost the ability to do the Maiden and Rush solos because I kept trying to find the notes in the Petnatonic box scale form.

I get a million songs out of the Mixolydian scale (from a Skolnick article in a magazine) and Pentatonics, as well as "whatever pops into my head".

It'd be nice to know every scale and every mode so I could just whip out whatever was in my head, but given my adherence to linear patterns (the one thing I can't apply my typical scatterbrain thinking and non-conformist perspective to), I know it'd be limiting for me.

[skintaster]

Thanks for all of the input everyone. All good food for thought!

[jgcable]

Whatever it takes for you to achieve your goals. Some of us need it.. others don't.
I am in the don't category although I am a classically trained pianist too.

I know little to nothing about theory when it pertains to guitar. With that said.. the best way to describe how I play is I listen to the melodies in my head and I just play them. I know what every note on the guitar will sound like before I play it and since I have relative borderline perfect pitch its really easy to form harmonies and all that jazz. I also have a very good musical memory and ear. If I can hum a song in my head I can play it. Now... if I sit in with a band that is doing progressions that I can't follow musically like jazz or jazz/fusion... I am fucked bigtime. I don't jam with those players!!
The most popular theory players back in the day were students and graduates from Berkley. They could tell you anything about keys and modes and scales and all kinds of theory about playing guitar and many of them were outstanding players but they all sounded the same. Also... many of them sight read and if the paper fell of the stand they would have to stop playing.. similar to the page turners who sit next to a pianist who only sight reads and can't play by ear. They also play with little feel and never really develop their own style. Theory.... its not for me but it maybe for you!!! Whatever makes you better.

[jgcable]

Honestly I think Lynch downplays how much he knows. Didn't he take private lessons with a GIT instructor? He knows some shit, I'm tellin ya.

I agree 100%.

[shredmonster]

The more you know the better off you are period.