How Much Theory Do You Need?

[Leo Chang]

I agree with what you said.

Basically the same way I feel, knowing some (or a lot) of theory will open your mind to new avenues you wouldn't otherwise have done down, and knowing the rules also doesn't mean you can't break them, unless you're just "that type of person."

But you can know all the theory in the world and if you don't have a good ear you won't produce good music, at least not consistently. You'll produce music that follows conventions, but that doesn't mean it will be good music.

This is true of any style of art, really, that's where the "art" part comes in.

I agree, especially the last sentence

In martial art (another "art"), it's the same thing. In real fighting situations, an experienced street fighter who picked up things on the street.... and a true martial art master who has studied with an excellent master.... will both get the job done.

In real fighting, anything goes. But the "anything goes" of the street fighter and the "anything goes" of the martial art master will have very different qualities.

One is not better than the other, it's just which approach one gravitates towards. (and which approach serves your specific martial art goals the best)


- Leo.

[Leo Chang]

some great thoughts in this thread....

One thing I'd like to point out is the relation between theory and technique Music theory is just that, its related to music - it is applicable to any instrument at any time. Having said that, all the theory in the world will do little good if you don't have the technical abilities to use it to your benefit

I feel the same way. It's my belief that most electric guitarist are turned off of theory simply because there are not that many good teachers who knows how train their students to actually apply the theory they know. (Same sad situation in the modern Classical world, but to a much lesser extent)

Any tips for applying the theory that one already knows?


- Leo.

[Jacksons Shred]

thats not true i play piano and i dont kno my scales but i learned everything by ear and memorized it or its just i dont kno wat the scales are called

So you know scales, you just don't know what they are called. Sounds exactly like what I summed up in my post. Just because you don't know the formal name doesn't mean you aren't educated and know scales to play and what to play over what.

I think there's a misconception between being educated and "knowing theory".

[C.C._Devill119]

Good thread, great advice!

Dude, this a good thread. So for example if you want to mainly learn rock/metal what music theory is important and needed?

To me music theory is boring but I know it's important.

[MakeAJazzNoiseHere]

I'm no musical genius and I don't know what works for everyone but a couple of basic key points...

1. How to figure out what key a song is in
2. What are the applicable scales for that key
3. How to harmonize

This at least gets you in the ballpark for not sounding like you're just wanking all over the fretboard when you play lead.

There's a lot of room for interpretation of point #2 depending on what kind of "feel" you are going for, and same with #3. Those are "simple" questions which can have answers as simple or complex as you want them to be.

[Grandturk]

1. How to figure out what key a song is in

I only play in Em, so if the song is not in that key, I don't play it. Sometimes I switch it up and play songs that are in Gmajor.

[Axewielder]

I only play in Em, so if the song is not in that key, I don't play it. Sometimes I switch it up and play songs that are in Gmajor.

I sometimes write in Eb, but I have to tune down to do it.

[Endrik]

So for example if you want to mainly learn rock/metal what music theory is important and needed?

I think anyone who wants to learn theory no matter what instrument they play or what style they are into would be better off learning theory from jazz perspective rather than classical perspective. Traditional classical music theory has many flaws in it. Their theory or rules started during the medieval era and early classical music days when the harmonic content was very simplistic (like Baroque). It was some Romantic era but mostly modern composers who saw serious flaws in the traditional way. Jazz scholars came up with better concepts. They have all the stuff the classical guys know + a lot more and it goes into pretty insane stuff too for real theory freaks.

[Leo Chang]

I think anyone who wants to learn theory no matter what instrument they play or what style they are into would be better off learning theory from jazz perspective rather than classical perspective. Traditional classical music theory has many flaws in it. Their theory or rules started during the medieval era and early classical music days when the harmonic content was very simplistic (like Baroque). It was some Romantic era but mostly modern composers who saw serious flaws in the traditional way. Jazz scholars came up with better concepts. They have all the stuff the classical guys know + a lot more and it goes into pretty insane stuff too for real theory freaks.

Wow... good point. Never thought of it that way.

Any good jazz theory resources you can recommend?


- Leo.

[Endrik]

mmm.. let me think... don't know too much resources... I think Berklee Press has given out many good ones... I mostly familiar with books which are more based on composition and whatnot... I have "Jazz Composition: Theory And Practice" by Ted Pease which is very good. It shows a lot of theory and jazz composition. I think even non-jazz players can learn a lot from the composition stuff from it because it explains how all the tricky chords, comping, progressions, atonalities etc. work, things which classical theory doesn't give a lot of answers to. And it shows how to arrange brass section and whatnot. Tons of kick ass sound samples. It goes from dixieland big band to modal jazz and modern prog-fusion. As an "by the ear" player I don't have much to do with it but I've loaned it to people who go to music school and they've found it very useful.

Another one which I have is "Jazz Improvisation For Guitar: A Melodic Approach" by Garrison Fewell. It's more simplistic but excellent for guitar players who want to know about basic and tricky chords and comping, different kinds of arpeggios and voicings and how they work in different situations, out-of-box phrases and lines, melodies and their relationships with chords and progressions etc. It has tons of sound examples and backing tracks.

As far as pure theory goes... I'm not sure... check out Perklee Press, Hal Leonard etc. publications. I'm sure they have a lot of stuff.
But there is one more concept theory book I know. And it's funny how I found out about it, and how I saw flaws in classical theory from one perspective.

As I've said before I'm a big fan of Hindustani and Carnatic music. That stuff has influenced my playing and writing a lot. In india the songs are based on ragas. Raga is basically a melodic concept which contains certain notes/scales/modes. And ragas are named after the group of notes (modes etc.). And based on that raga, they improvise on it and make up melodies and whatnot.
For example one of my favorite ragas is Brindavani Sarang which in case of C would consist of notes (C, D, F, G, B). Tunes based on that raga had a huge impact on me. And many cool bands like The Beatles and Led Zeppelin have used those ideas too.

Another favorite raga is Kalyan (also called Yaman). Those raga tunes have a very cool, mystical vibe. It's another thing that has influenced me a lot.
It's rarely used in Western music but many of my favorite musicians and composers have made their tunes based on same type of note groups. Like Debussy, Miles Davis, Frank Zappa, Steve Vai etc. guys who like those "mystical" sounding ideas. Or for example the song "Maria" in West Side Story or the theme song for The Jetsons is based on the same concept.
And that Raga in the case of C has notes (C, D, E, F#, G, A, B).
Basically major with sharp fourth/flat fifth.
Anyway later I found out that in the Western world it's a scale or mode called Lydian. During the ancient Greek days it had it's importance but after that it was kinda lost in the Western world.

During some period in the medieval times anything which had flat fifth in it was banned. It was called the "devil note". Blues and jazz cats call it the "blue" note, a thing which make the ordinary pentatonic scale a blues box.
Anyway it was banned because it supposed to make people sexually aroused. Flat fifth in minor context, sounds evil, the whole tritone thing a la Black Sabbath. But in the major context, the Lydian mode, or Kalyan raga sound very "mystical" and indeed very sexual. Maybe there was some truth behind it Kind a funny how I know some music theory because I'm interested in history

Anyway during those times most of the official music theory was written down. A lot of it was based on the Greek ideas but it was somewhat different. Mostly the Italians wrote down most of the rules. And during that time Italy was a very strict and strong Catholic nation.
Anyway a lot of classical music was based on those concepts. And although the flat fifth wasn't banned anymore, it wasn't much used in the western world for centuries except for a couple of cases.
And it worked for them. Because harmonically early classical music was basic A B C of music theory. Baroque was harmonically more simplistic than most pop songs on today's mainstream radio. They had pretty strict rules and whatnot. Most of it was just silly in my opinion. No wonder that so few composers from that era are remembered... and the most famous one was a German who sometimes dared to use chords which even had a fourth note instead of two or three.

The classical era was somewhat better harmonically but it still had a lot of strict rules. But thanks to Beethoven a lot of improvements were made. People started writing based on pure emotion and whatnot. That's when the Romantic era started.
During Romantic era more and more people started to go out of the box. Music became harmonically more interesting.
And it was the modern era guys who made a real break through. They experimented with everything.
And most of the famous composers are from either Romantic or Modern era. And those guys influenced jazz musicians the most when it comes to harmony.

People started using flat fifth more and more. Wanger made some very evil sounding stuff based on the tritone. But it was Debussy who used it more "mystical" way as he was influenced by oriental music. The Lydian thing and whatnot. And Debussy's music had a huge impact on the biggest jazz album ever. Miles Davis "Kind Of Blue".

A great jazz pianist and composer George Russell was one of the first guys who wrote modern music theory. And he had this thing called "The Lydian Chromatic Concept Of Tonal Organization". It opened the eyes of many great jazz players.

Basically he showed that the classical music theory was flawed in many ways. It doesn't give a lot of answers to harmonical structure. He showed that the official theory where everything is based on C Major scale doesn't work in many situations.
Basically human ears like fifths. We guitarists play power chords because they sound cool. It's just a root and a fifth.
And when you play the fifths from the C: C-G-D-A-E-B-F# you see, there's F# and not an F.
I think it's called Circle Of Fifths which shows how the fifths go, classical guys used it as a basis for progressions but not in more complicated harmonic structure.
Basically if you press down all those notes on the piano (using the sustain pedal) going by the fifths... starting from C, then G, D etc. and when you play F it sounds like crap. If you play F# it sounds beautiful.
And based on that George Russell opened up a whole new world of harmonic possibilities. Jazz guys love complicated harmonic structures and it's showed them the new way. Absolutely the best swore by this concept, including Miles Davis and John Coltrane.
And the first time Miles strongly based his tunes on that concept was "Kind Of Blue". And it's interesting because Miles took George Russell's Lydian Chromatic concept while he and mostly his pianist the great Bill Evans were influenced by Debussy who had based many of his compositions around similar "Lydian" ideas.

So that's one of the books. George Russell's "Lydian Chromatic Concept Of Tonal Organization"
But that came out a long time ago. There's a lot more concepts written and I'm sure many are more improved.
There's of course many jazz cats who criticize Russell's concept and offer their own ideas but absolutely the best were influenced by Russell's concept. Even modern era's stars like Jan Garbarek.
There's a lot of great material out there and I think everyone should do a little bit of research to find the stuff which would suit the best

[Endrik]

If anyone's interested here's Brindavani Sarang ragas

by Nityanand Haldipur

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzO4OjyPM5M

and by Amzad Rahman

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwxEDsmR7Qw

and those ideas used in Western music

The Beatles - "Within You Without You" has mostly Brindavani Sarang phrases + a couple of other notes coming in here and there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNLFq6Rh3Bg

Led Zeppelin - "Nobody's Fault But Mine" the intro riff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esZ15n6_5JY

Led Zeppelin - "Bring It On Home" the main riff. Tune starts at 4:21, the main riff starts at 6:05

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP5D4HX-waY

and here's Kalyan (Yaman)/Lydian ragas

by Ravi Shankar

here's the trippier version

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JjrWxun46M

the same thing but starts with faster licks and tablas

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KXk_8_8oLY&feature=related

Arnab Chakrabarty shredfest

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwLtD8XAihQ

western music

Claude Debussy

many sections in "l'Isle de Joyeuse"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlGFfjY_vrY

and many sections in "Harmonie du Soire"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bXOsEd9ZcE

"Maria" in West Side Story by Leonard Bernstein

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpdB6CN7jww

The Jetsons theme song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yjy-fnsmWR4&feature=related

Led Zeppelin "Dancing Days" the main/intro riff

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b56SU9QxYtM&feature=channel_page

Frank Zappa "Return Of The Son Of Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzE2FCn5nYY

Steve Vai - "The Riddle" many parts including the intro

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4P8OcuHMPk

Jeff Buckley "Opened Once" most sections

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H5v_pZhDU8

Satriani "Flying In A Blue Dream"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOsgv_X_cV8&feature=related

Andy James messing around with Vai-ish licks and whatnot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9lso60rzIE

[Leo Chang]

Endrik:

Awesome stuff, I'll definitely look more into the things you mentioned, and probably pick up a few books.

Any good books on the "history" aspect of music theory like the stuff you mentioned? I am really into history as well, though I have focused primarily on the history of various martial arts and how different weapons developed / evolved.


Thanks,


- Leo.

[Endrik]

Any good books on the "history" aspect of music theory like the stuff you mentioned?

No specific advice here. Just read whatever you can.
When most kids were doing home work I was reading band bios.
I'm sort of an anthropologist, I'm always interested how different kinds of music were born and what were the reasons behind it.
I've read all kinds of stuff, band biographies, music history books, attended seminars, talked to a lot of knowledgeable people and thanks to my cultural studies in university I've been exposed to a lot of great material. I've just read a lot of different kinds of stuff and then connecting the dots.
I think that's the only good way to understand some cultural concept, being exposed to a lot of different material and then connecting the dots.
But I'm planning to write a book someday, about how all the music is connected and how it's evolved since the beginning. Of course there's a lot of personal theories too behind such work. But I'm usually pretty good at it. Some time ago I wrote my theory about psychedelic art which was just based on my personal observations and whatnot. I was connecting the dots. How very old African or Australian or Indian music and art are so similar in many ways with the music and art of Impressionism/Surrealism/Nouveau era or with the whole Beatnik/Hippie thing. One of the leading art history professors and a member of heritage protection council approved all that crap with an A. Some may call all that stuff bullshit but I don't care, fuggums.

[Leo Chang]

Cool stuff, looking forward to your upcoming book then

The approach you described (reading lots of different things and connect the dots) has always been my approach as well, just that I focused on other subjects.

Guess I have lots of reading to do


- Leo.

[AtomicPunk]

You need as much theory to accomplish want you want to musically.

I personally don't believe in limiting my knowledge of music theory because someone doesn't think it's cool. The earth isn't flat.